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  1. #1
    kd2017 is online now Well, I tried at least.
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    Tables Disappearing In Relationship Window


    When the relationships window is open and you edit and save changes to a table *sometimes* it will hide one or many tables in the relationship window. It doesn't remove relationships or cause any other problems that I'm aware of, I'm just forced to redo my ERD which can be a pain to figure out what's missing as the DB structure grows in complexity.

    Does anyone know a fix or workaround?

    Looks like I'm running version 2302. This has been going on for several years now and is a complete p.i.t.a.!
    Last edited by kd2017; 03-21-2023 at 01:55 PM. Reason: I don't grammar gud

  2. #2
    June7's Avatar
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    What kind of change?

    I use Access 2010 and cannot replicate issue.
    How to attach file: http://www.accessforums.net/showthread.php?t=70301 To provide db: copy, remove confidential data, run compact & repair, zip w/Windows Compression.

  3. #3
    kd2017 is online now Well, I tried at least.
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    Good question! I'm glad you asked because before you asked I didn't know and I thought it was random. But with a little bit of testing I can reliably replicate the issue if I
    1) Have multiple tables selected/highlighted in the relationship window
    2) Open one of the selected tables in the table designer
    3) Save & close the table designer. actually making a change doesn't appear to be necessary, just saving

    All of the selected tables from step 1 will be removed from the relationship window except for the saved table.

    I guess my 'work around' is just to make sure no other tables are ever selected if I'm editing a table...

    I don't know if this is 2016, 2019, 365, or what they're calling it now. About says Microsoft 365 MSO (Version 2302 build 16.0...) 64-bit. Now that I think about it, if I recall correctly, this started a few years ago when they added that feature to allow for selecting and moving multiple tables at once and 'size to fit'... it's all coming back now, I probably griped about it here to you guys back then too

  4. #4
    isladogs's Avatar
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    I can replicate this in A365 v2303 ....BUT ....

    However, when you :
    a) try to open one of the tables in design view, you will be asked if you want to open the file as read only.
    If not, you are warned to close the table and all dependant objects first
    If you click Yes (read only) - the issue doesn't arise
    If you click No - you may find the table closes. Again no problem.

    However after doing this several times, the table will eventually open in design view.

    Saving the table does cause all tables in the selected relationship group to 'disappear' except the saved table

    Now close the relationships window, you will be asked if you want to save changes.
    a) Click No - on reopening the relationships are still there
    b) Click Yes - on reopening the tables remain missing

    BUT ... if you drag the tables back to the relationships window, the relationships are immediately restored.
    That is because the relationships still remain in the MSysRelationships window but have just been hidden

    Exactly the same effect occurs if you hide the tables yourself in the relationships window

    So in my opinion its more of a design feature/glitch than a bug AND to trigger it, you have to ignore several warnings
    I will ask the rest of the Access Forever blog team for their opinions on whether it should be reported as a bug
    Colin, Access MVP, Website, email
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  5. #5
    June7's Avatar
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    How do you select/highlight multiple tables in Relationships window?
    Do not get prompt when opening table in design view.
    How to attach file: http://www.accessforums.net/showthread.php?t=70301 To provide db: copy, remove confidential data, run compact & repair, zip w/Windows Compression.

  6. #6
    kd2017 is online now Well, I tried at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by isladogs View Post
    a) try to open one of the tables in design view, you will be asked if you want to open the file as read only.
    .. to trigger it, you have to ignore several warnings
    Does it give you warnings if you don't have anything other than the relationship window open? I've never received that warning except for when I try to open a table in design view and I also have an associated form open. Otherwise I get zero warnings at all to ignore.

  7. #7
    kd2017 is online now Well, I tried at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by June7 View Post
    How do you select/highlight multiple tables in Relationships window?
    Do not get prompt when opening table in design view.
    I'm not sure that you can in a2010.

    The update from just a few years ago allows you to shift+click to select multiple tables or simply click and hold drag your mouse cursor within the relationship window. When a table is selected it gets a yellow (highlighted) border.

  8. #8
    isladogs's Avatar
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    Hi @kd2017
    I rechecked following your comment about the warnings.
    Using a slightly different approach, no warnings occur when opening one of the selected tables in design view.

    Confusing to end users & I now agree it is a design bug

    Iíve done a short video and uploaded it as a private YT video to demonstrate: https://youtu.be/zyfd0UkWYYY
    Instructions to reproduce are in the video description but also listed below for convenience

    1. Open relationships window and 'lasso' a group of tables to select them all
    2. Right click one of the tables and select Table Design.
    3. Save the Table Design without making changes
    4. All other tables in the selected group are removed from the window.
    NOTE: They still exist but are not visible
    5. Click Show Direct Relationships and all tables linked to the remaining table become visible ...but NOT any not directly linked...obviously!
    6. Repeat but this time don't save the table design...no problems occur
    7. Repeat, save the design then close the relationships window without saving. All relationships still shown on reopening
    8. Repeat, save the design, close and save the relationships window. Not restored on reopening.
    9. Repeat but lasso several unconnected groups at the same time. All groups affected as above

    Attached is the simple test file I used.

    Just to confirm, this behaviour is only seen in recent versions since the (very useful) ability to select multiple tables in the relationships window was added
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Colin, Access MVP, Website, email
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  9. #9
    kd2017 is online now Well, I tried at least.
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    Thank you for all your help, Colin! I did submit 'feedback' through access but it sounds like you and your group have actual pull!

    This has been annoying me since that aforementioned update, I'm surprised no one else has come around here to ask about it. It probably just indicates I just have an unusual/inefficient workflow...

    FWIW I dont imagine that I go around selecting multiple tables intentionally very often, the selection just seems to grow for whatever reason and then suddenly *boom* my diagram is trashed. Ill start paying closer attention to what I'm doing that's inadvertently leading to multiple selected tables in the first place.

  10. #10
    isladogs's Avatar
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    Hi again
    Just waiting for feedback from the rest of the Access Forever team before deciding what action to take.
    Strangely, I can't seem to trigger the warnings any more. Wish I'd taken a screenshot!
    Colin, Access MVP, Website, email
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  11. #11
    isladogs's Avatar
    isladogs is offline MVP / VIP
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    Just to let you know that the issue with the relationships window has been acknowledged by a member of the Access team.

    As already discussed, it is a display issue and the set of actions needed to trigger it are fairly obscure (lasso a group, view design, save).
    It is also easy to restore the missing items by clicking Show All Relationships
    As such, I suspect it may not be considered as a High priority to fix.

    Nevertheless, thanks for alerting us to the issue.

    UPDATE:
    I've now created a web article on this topic Relationships Window Bug (isladogs.co.uk) and an updated version of the video is also now publicly available Relationships Design Window Bug - YouTube
    Last edited by isladogs; 03-25-2023 at 11:15 AM.
    Colin, Access MVP, Website, email
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  12. #12
    kd2017 is online now Well, I tried at least.
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    Thanks for all your help, Colin!

    Something I've noted is that with no tables selected in the relationship view I can right click one table, open it up in table designer, make changes, save and exit the table designer, then when I come back to the relationship window I find that multiple tables are now selected. So at this point if I open and edit a table I'm going to trigger this bug. My point is that the user doesn't even have to select multiple tables themselves, access might do that for us all on its own!

    (edit) I'll elaborate a bit for sake of repeatability:
    1) open a table which is related to another table in the relationship window
    2) modify a field name
    3) save & exit

    Returning to the relationship window I find that the edited table and ONE directly related table are now selected.

    (Edit x2)
    Ughh! Well apparently that's not even the only way access might auto select multiple tables for me... It happens when I'm not paying enough attention, giving the impression that it's random. But I know computers don't do random. I'll update as I discover other reproducible steps

  13. #13
    isladogs's Avatar
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    Hi
    That would appear to make it a more serious bug, but I am unable to replicate your results
    When I return to the relationships window, only the table whose design I viewed/edited is selected
    Colin, Access MVP, Website, email
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  14. #14
    kd2017 is online now Well, I tried at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by isladogs View Post
    Hi
    That would appear to make it a more serious bug, but I am unable to replicate your results
    When I return to the relationships window, only the table whose design I viewed/edited is selected
    Whelp, it seems I need have to amend my previous steps: it's only happening at the moment when I use ctrl-s to save the table changes instead of clicking a save button.

    This is too funny!

    I've attached a db file just in case.

    (note: as I was repeating the steps to make sure it was reproducible, after of one the repetitions I came back to the relationship window find two tables selected and one already disappeared. I haven't been able to reproduce that.)
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #15
    isladogs's Avatar
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    OK I tried saving with Ctrl+S and can confirm that a second table is also selected.

    Using my test Db, on one occasion the second table selected was in a separate group AND 2 other tables disappeared. Very odd behaviour

    I've recorded a video outlining the latest findings and uploaded it to YouTube (unlisted) https://youtu.be/H6DCrip4Kqw
    I've also let the Access team know
    Colin, Access MVP, Website, email
    The more I learn, the more I know I don't know. When I don't know, I keep quiet!
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Please reply to this thread with any new information or opinions.

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