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  1. #16
    Michael91 is offline Advanced Beginner
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    I should also say that for many data fields there will be entries with missing data - archaeological data is never perfect. Is this an issue, and how do I resolve it?



    For example, a poorly preserved inhumation found before modern recording standards may not have data for the burial position, or the sex, or age, or associated material, or even site type. In each case where the data is absent I have been writing "unknown" in this field, or putting a "/" there instead of leaving the box blank.

  2. #17
    orange's Avatar
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    Is any of your previous Excel data relevant to your current project? There may be a way(s) to link/import/restructure that existing Excel-based data into a more useful database design.

    You may find this thread/dialog a useful reference for developing a new database.


    I have done a little review of your post #14.

    You are probably already aware of these links that seem related to your project:

    1 Guidelines to the Standards for Recording Human Remains
    2 Towards an Online Database for Archaeological Landscapes

    For others reading this: a few definitions/descriptions via Google

    *grave,--a place of burial for a dead body, typically a hole dug in the ground and marked by a stone or mound
    *pit,--a hollow or indentation in the surface
    *ditch,--a narrow channel dug in the ground
    *cist, --an ancient coffin or burial chamber made from stone or a hollowed tree.
    *barrow --a large mound of earth or stones over the remains of the dead
    osteological (*--medical knowledge concerning the bones of the skeletal system.)
    *--aDNA Ancient DNA is DNA isolated from ancient specimens.
    *--A depositional environment is a specific type of place in which sediments are deposited, such as a stream channel, a lake, or the bottom of the deep ocean


    Another approach to design is to create some mock data based on your initial thoughts of questions to be asked of the data and based on your previous Excel-based study and/or other studies you are familiar with. Then adjust your model/ initial tables as your "discovery process" progresses. This exercise may help you refine/expand scope and/or subject matter.

    I had not encountered the word cist before; I did know about cyst.
    Interesting project.

  3. #18
    Michael91 is offline Advanced Beginner
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    Quote Originally Posted by orange View Post
    Is any of your previous Excel data relevant to your current project? There may be a way(s) to link/import/restructure that existing Excel-based data into a more useful database design.

    I haven't looked at your #14 in any depth, yet.

    You may find this thread/dialog a useful reference for developing a new database.
    The excel data is not relevant at present no - different time period and geographical region. Thanks for the previous thread you linked about the Columbarium, it was interesting but unfortunately didn't really clear things up for me. I will take a look at the other thread now. One of the major issues I find is that every example datavase deals with something so far removed from my needs (normally a cookie shop or something) that I find it very difficult to translate that knowledge into something relevant to my work.

  4. #19
    orange's Avatar
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    I have edited/updated my previous post.

    The forum members will help you with database design. But we need some representative data or clear description on the things involved (potential tables) and the details to be recorded for each (attributes) and how these things are related (relationships).

    Perhaps you (with forum assistance) can establish some "business rules" to facilitate the design process.

  5. #20
    Gicu's Avatar
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    I still think the table structure needs some tweaking, and the best way for us to see it is to get a sample. You can make a copy of it and use my utility to delete all data from the tables (http://forestbyte.com/ms-access-util...-data-cleaner/) then run a Compact and Repair, zip it and upload it so we could have a look.

    Cheers,
    Vlad Cucinschi
    MS Access Developer
    http://forestbyte.com/

  6. #21
    Michael91 is offline Advanced Beginner
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    Quote Originally Posted by orange View Post
    Is any of your previous Excel data relevant to your current project? There may be a way(s) to link/import/restructure that existing Excel-based data into a more useful database design.

    You may find this thread/dialog a useful reference for developing a new database.


    I have done a little review of your post #14.

    You are probably already aware of these links that seem related to your project:

    1 Guidelines to the Standards for Recording Human Remains
    2 Towards an Online Database for Archaeological Landscapes

    For others reading this: a few definitions/descriptions via Google

    *grave,--a place of burial for a dead body, typically a hole dug in the ground and marked by a stone or mound
    *pit,--a hollow or indentation in the surface
    *ditch,--a narrow channel dug in the ground
    *cist, --an ancient coffin or burial chamber made from stone or a hollowed tree.
    *barrow --a large mound of earth or stones over the remains of the dead
    osteological (*--medical knowledge concerning the bones of the skeletal system.)
    *--aDNA Ancient DNA is DNA isolated from ancient specimens.
    *--A depositional environment is a specific type of place in which sediments are deposited, such as a stream channel, a lake, or the bottom of the deep ocean


    Another approach to design is to create some mock data based on your initial thoughts of questions to be asked of the data and based on your previous Excel-based study and/or other studies you are familiar with. Then adjust your model/ initial tables as your "discovery process" progresses. This exercise may help you refine/expand scope and/or subject matter.

    I had not encountered the word cist before; I did know about cyst.
    Interesting project.
    I was aware of the former link (use it extensively) but not the latter paper, so thank you

    Apologies if any of the terms I have used are unknown to anyone - the definitions you have given are spot on, but if there are any others people are unsure of I am happy to explain.

    Another approach to design is to create some mock data based on your initial thoughts of questions to be asked of the data and based on your previous Excel-based study and/or other studies you are familiar with. Then adjust your model/ initial tables as your "discovery process" progresses. This exercise may help you refine/expand scope and/or subject matter. - This is great advice but the thing is, I know what data I want to record, I am used to working with large datasets, and I do know the kinds of questions it needs to answer, but that is all I can know at present. The database currently has 500 entries already in it, and was working well (I thought) until I realised the query issue - I have been editing and redrafting as I go, just as you suggest, and I guess now is a part of the discovery process where I find I may need to scrap most of it unfortunately

  7. #22
    Michael91 is offline Advanced Beginner
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    Hi Vlad,

    Do you have a 64-bit supported version of that cleaner? I tried it but it won't open.
    Thanks!

  8. #23
    orange's Avatar
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    I think we are all saying the same thing. Your current data structure (tables and relationships) needs to be 'normalized'. The data you have already "automated" can be retrieved and used with a new structure/redesign.

  9. #24
    Gicu's Avatar
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    Hi Michael,

    Here it is.

    Cheers,
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Vlad Cucinschi
    MS Access Developer
    http://forestbyte.com/

  10. #25
    Michael91 is offline Advanced Beginner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gicu View Post
    I still think the table structure needs some tweaking, and the best way for us to see it is to get a sample. You can make a copy of it and use my utility to delete all data from the tables (http://forestbyte.com/ms-access-util...-data-cleaner/) then run a Compact and Repair, zip it and upload it so we could have a look.

    Cheers,
    I deleted all the data manually, and then populated it with a small amount of fake example data, I hope that is helpful?

    Scotland database - Cleared version.zip

  11. #26
    Michael91 is offline Advanced Beginner
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    @orange Seems so - I will get reading and hopefully I can make sense of it. Thank you

  12. #27
    orange's Avatar
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    Did a quick look at your database. The attached file shows tables and field names with embedded spaces or special characters which are frowned upon by most.

    As I understand the project, the base unit within the project is the individual. Everything else is "descriptive data". eg. site, location,whether whole or disjoint or co-mingled, burial type(cist/barrow..), C14 date, who recorded the info, when recorded, some indentifying numbers for your analysis(lab no,..)

    What is AMS? SK?

    Can you give a quick description of each of these fields? Also explain the (2)?
    field_name
    Individual ID
    Site name
    Burial/SK/Deposit no
    AMS/C14 date
    Raw date
    Error range
    Lab number
    AMS/C14 date (2)
    Raw date (2)
    Error range (2)
    Lab number (2)
    AMS/C14 combined date
    Combined raw date
    Combined error range
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by orange; 05-04-2022 at 11:34 AM. Reason: adjusted spelling/format

  13. #28
    Michael91 is offline Advanced Beginner
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    Quote Originally Posted by orange View Post
    Did a quick look at your database. The attached file shows tables and field names with embedded spaces or special characters which are frowned upon by most.

    What is AMS?

    Can you give a quick description of each of these fields? Also explain the (2)?
    field_name
    Individual ID
    Site name
    Burial/SK/Deposit no
    AMS/C14 date
    Raw date
    Error range
    Lab number
    AMS/C14 date (2)
    Raw date (2)
    Error range (2)
    Lab number (2)
    AMS/C14 combined date
    Combined raw date
    Combined error range
    Thank you for this

    AMS stands for Accelerator Mass Spectrometer - it is a machine used for dating material/human remains - effectively radiocarbon dating but newer and more accurate than traditional means

    SK is just shorthand for skeleton --- often excavators will assign a skeleton an "SK" number so they stand out e.g. SK1

    Individual ID ---- The ID number assigned to the individual (skeleton) being dated
    Site name --- The site name they came from
    Burial/SK/Deposit no --- The original identifier they were given by their excavator. This is useful info to include in the main table, but not here really. These numbers cannot be used for the main identifier in the database as too many sites will contain skeletons labelled as "SK1" or similar
    AMS/C14 date --- The calibrated date produced by AMS/radiocarbon dating. Usually presented as years BC or AD e.g. 200-50 cal BC
    Raw date --- The uncalibrated date presented as years BP (Before present, the present being 1950 when radiocarbon dating was invented) e.g. 2150
    Error range --- The range of error for the uncalibrated date, no technique can get you an exact date, so there is a margin of error. e.g. ±75 so a full raw date would be presented as 2150±75 meaning the sample dated to 2150 years before 1950, plus or minus 75 years
    Lab number --- the unique number each AMS lab gives each sample e.g. GU1149
    AMS/C14 date (2) -- Sometimes skeletons are dated more than once, as technology improves or if there are concerns over accuracy of one date
    Raw date (2)
    Error range (2)
    Lab number (2)
    AMS/C14 combined date --- Where more than one date is available, they can be combined and averaged for accuracy.
    Combined raw date
    Combined error range

    I hope that makes things clearer?

    Though I would say, the AMS table is the least of my concerns at the moment, in terms of the importance of data

    As I understand the project, the base unit within the project is the individual. Everything else is "descriptive data". eg. site, location,whether whole or disjoint or co-mingled, burial type(cist/barrow..), C14 date, who recorded the info, when recorded, some indentifying numbers for your analysis(lab no,..)

    Yes, this is correct - the individual (be they a skeleton, cremation, single bone, bog body, whatever) is the important base unit. Everything else is detail about them that can be used for comparative analysis e.g. are all cremations in a pot? Are male and female skeletons placed in different positions? The sites are arguably as important as the individuals, as they provide the context in which the individuals existed, and were buried. Context is everything in archaeology, without it, data has no meaning.



  14. #29
    Gicu's Avatar
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    Hi Michael.
    Please review the updated relationships and tables. I have replaced the many timeframe fields in the Site List table (which were set as multivalue fields which is something most developers don't use due to the pain in getting the actual values in a usable format when you need them) with a junction table. Also created a single AMS_Dates table with foreign key fields linking it to the type tables.

    EDIT: I see orange is helping you so I'll stay out for a while, got some urgent digging to do (in my garden, I'm very late this year ).

    Cheers,
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Vlad Cucinschi
    MS Access Developer
    http://forestbyte.com/

  15. #30
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    I think vlad and I are on the same page here --trying to get a simpler model. I see some collapsing of tables to 1 more generic with attributes from related tables.... but I'm not sure. There seems to be a lot of overlap in the tables.

    Review vlad's revision and see how it fits your needs.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	draftArch.PNG 
Views:	17 
Size:	48.8 KB 
ID:	47752

    I was going back to creating a model but I saw vlad had posted a revision. Will wait until you have reviewed things.

Please reply to this thread with any new information or opinions.

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