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  1. #31
    isladogs's Avatar
    isladogs is offline MVP / VIP
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    Before you upload it, try making an Access copy of the BE and relink to that.
    Do the problems remain the same if you revert to an Access BE?
    Colin, Access MVP, Website, email
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  2. #32
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    Quote Originally Posted by isladogs View Post
    Before you upload it, try making an Access copy of the BE and relink to that.
    Do the problems remain the same if you revert to an Access BE?
    Sorry, but that's not really possible. The SQL Server database is not just a set of tables and views - it makes massive use of stored procedures and functions, which would not work in an Access BE. Converting all the tables and views, then building Access stubs that would at least respond to the stored procedure calls, then changing all the stuff in the FE to deal with such stubs properly would be a huge amount of work, far more than I could justify for a simple experiment.

    Thank you for the suggestion, but that's not really an avenue I can afford to explore, at least not until I get a good bit more desperate than I am now. Just out of curiosity, though, what would such an experiment reveal?

  3. #33
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    A side note - according to these guys, maintaining an open connection improves performance when using an Access BE, to eliminate the repeated creating and deleting of the .laccdb file.

    https://www.fmsinc.com/MicrosoftAcce...dDatabase.html

    That would not apply to a SQL Server BE. Is there some other reason to maintain an open connection to a true server backend? Is not the ODBC link wholly adequate for this, and maintaining an extra open table just a squandered resource?

  4. #34
    CJ_London is online now VIP
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    Not quite true, it is making the connection overhead

  5. #35
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    This is getting goofier by the second. I now have a second form, open in dialog mode in response to a user action. It has two sub forms; both of their Current events run on load. But the main form's Load event does not run. It DOES run when I click the red X to close the form, just like the main form when I attempted to close the DB did when I had the KeepAlive form open.

    I thought I was used to Access' loopiness, but I'm starting to feel like Alice.

  6. #36
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    Adding an Open event makes the Load event also fire properly.

  7. #37
    isladogs's Avatar
    isladogs is offline MVP / VIP
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    Re post #33.
    That's the idea of a persistent connection I was referring to earlier.

    The reason I was suggesting testing it with an Access version of the BE father than SQL Server was to test it was the connection that was causing the issue.
    Views aren't an issue as they can be converted to Access tables or queries.
    Stored procedures would be more problematic but are any of those used at startup before or when it crashes.
    I suspect its either a coding issue e.g. an infinite loop causing Access to run out of available connections...or a network connection issue


    I'm out of ideas without having something to look at. If you can upload something that simulates just the startup processes, it would help us to help you.
    Colin, Access MVP, Website, email
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  8. #38
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    moke123 is offline Me.Dirty=True
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    I'm not a Sql server guy and know nothing about it.
    There was one thing that struck me when I read through this thread:

    There is a startup form called Start
    I know Allen Brownes list of reserved words is 11 years old but it does have
    "Start" as a Future SQL Server keyword (TSQL Ref in MSDN)

    I doubt it's relevant but since all else has failed I might change the forms name.
    If this helped, please click the star * at the bottom left and add to my reputation- Thanks

  9. #39
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    Quote Originally Posted by isladogs View Post
    Re post #33.
    That's the idea of a persistent connection I was referring to earlier.

    The reason I was suggesting testing it with an Access version of the BE father than SQL Server was to test it was the connection that was causing the issue.
    Views aren't an issue as they can be converted to Access tables or queries.
    Stored procedures would be more problematic but are any of those used at startup before or when it crashes.
    I suspect its either a coding issue e.g. an infinite loop causing Access to run out of available connections...or a network connection issue


    I'm out of ideas without having something to look at. If you can upload something that simulates just the startup processes, it would help us to help you.
    It's a thought, but unfortunately, there are many calls to stored procedures in the start-up, mostly to verify credentials and similar conditions necessary to subsequent functioning. Even butchering the start-up to bypass or simulate that would be a lot of work. I'll keep that in reserve for now.

    I've got another avenue I'm exploring now, and it looks relatively hopeful, at least so far - I have taken all the code from the start-up form, moved it to the main form and I open that directly. I initially went to a separate start-up form so that it would load faster - the main form is rather bulky, and it took a while to load. But in the newer versions and on newer machines, it loads pretty quickly, so maybe the reason for its existence no longer applies.

    I'm beginning to suspect that something in the start-up form stays activated, and sometimes Access reaches for it, thinking it's still on deck, and bombs when it discovers that the form is closed. One of the things that has occurred to me is loading recordsets. I know Access does not necessarily load an entire recordset immediately. It always brings in at least the first one, so that testing RecordCount will show that it is not empty, but then hands control back to the calling code and continues loading records in the background. It may be that the start-up form is opening something like that, and later, as Access attempts to continue filling a recordset, finds the start-up form gone and can't cope. I've looked for exactly that kind of rubbish in the start-up form and not found anything, and there shouldn't be anything like that - the start-up form only loads global objects, that are needed all over the place for the life of the app, but that would explain why opening the main form directly would work - it doesn't close, so Access would never have the rug yanked out from under its feet. It may be that despite the start-up form only addressing objects with global scope, there is some remnant of a link to the form from which it was initialized.

    So far, the main form is acting better, although I still do not have it completely converted. I'll keep posting what I find.

    And, it cannot be an endless loop or some similar boneheaded programming screw-up on my part. As I have written here several times, the vanishing act that Access pulls happens well AFTER all my start-up code has completed, and NONE of my code is running. Whatever is going on here, it is not nearly so simple as runaway VBA code.

  10. #40
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    Quote Originally Posted by moke123 View Post
    I'm not a Sql server guy and know nothing about it.
    There was one thing that struck me when I read through this thread:



    I know Allen Brownes list of reserved words is 11 years old but it does have
    "Start" as a Future SQL Server keyword (TSQL Ref in MSDN)

    I doubt it's relevant but since all else has failed I might change the forms name.
    Thank you for the idea. I agree - that's rather a long shot, but I'll give it a try.

  11. #41
    CJ_London is online now VIP
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    Would add we have little information on the different users to determine whether it is something to do with their individual setups

  12. #42
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
    Would add we have little information on the different users to determine whether it is something to do with their individual setups
    I could try providing such information, if you will tell me what information you think would help you. But I rather doubt it has something to do with individuals. It happens seemingly at random, and it probably happens more than I know, because some people will simply try it several times, and if it finally catches, they go to work, and don't bother telling me that it hiccuped again. They all know it is a current problem, and they all know I am working on it - there would be little point in reporting that 'it happened again'. I think it is something to do with either Office 365 or Windows 10, maybe both. This never happened on the older systems, and it's the same database.

  13. #43
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    Well, so far there is improvement. Doing away with the start-up form seems to have helped. I'm still testing, but it looks hopeful. More details later.

    Also, apparently I'm not the only one experiencing phantom Load triggering. I just ran across this:
    https://www.access-programmers.co.uk...g-form.254788/
    No serious solutions, just a few workarounds, but at least I'm not completely insane - others have run into this as well.

  14. #44
    Minty is offline VIP
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    Interesting to see how this has developed, and that other thread certainly has some experienced Access people involved.

    Glad you are making some progress.
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  15. #45
    pdanes is offline Competent Performer
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    Quote Originally Posted by moke123 View Post
    I'm not a Sql server guy and know nothing about it.
    There was one thing that struck me when I read through this thread:

    I know Allen Brownes list of reserved words is 11 years old but it does have
    "Start" as a Future SQL Server keyword (TSQL Ref in MSDN)

    I doubt it's relevant but since all else has failed I might change the forms name.
    So I tried it. I had a form named Start and a macro, also named Start which opens the Start form, linked to a quick toolbar button, so I don't have to scroll through the object list to find the Start form. I changed all of them to other (and different) names, but no luck. It still randomly quits, even after such changes.

    Thank you for the suggestion, but that wasn't it.

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